Tune issues after CAMS install

[2k05gt]

Well I went to the track this weekend with perfect air, DA -1100, Last year I was able to run 12.299 @ 110 and 12.32 @ 109 with 1.7 60' in the same DA, this year I added CAMS (Comp 127200 NSR) The Best I could do this weekend was 12.72 @ 105 1.89 60'. The Car can not launch hard, I stall to 3000 RPM and out of the hole the car launches in slomo, until 4000 RPM then it takes off.

Earlier in the morning I could only get 12.9 runs at 104 with 1.9 60' I added 4 deg timing down low and got a 12.8, I went and maxed timing on global and got the 12.7 My A/F was 12.9 WOT

I am stumped and so is Doug. I have tried everything to resolve the problem, here is the last email from Doug after I sent him my datalog file/attached

Does anyone have any idea's

Here is dougs note

Hey Scott,

I've reviewed the datalogg and the spark looks good down low, is the a/f good? I've seen this same thing with another set of cams I sold to a guy in New Hampshire, Charlie Grandll or Drago97 I think is his forum name? He as running low 12's n/a and then installed 127400 cams and couldn't get anything better then a 12.5 with 50rwhp more! I even flew up and dynotuned him to ensure everything was a 100% and still nothing. He tried a few different converters too but with the same issue. He took his cams out and still can't get below a 12.5 BUT he's running the same times with the stock cams making 30 less Hp overall.

Thanks,
Douglas Studdard


Also See Attached Datalog

[dragpac]

maybe you have broken plugs(white part) form the cam install.that happen to mine

[MarcSpaz]

I would try new plugs and go part pedal (don't cmpletely floor it) til you start to move a bit... I found WOT out of the hole sucks with my cams, but I don't have the right stall either.

[2k05gt]

The Plugs are a year Old (10,000 Miles) I installed them Last november
I was able to stall the Car Last year at 3000 RPM and it launched so hard that the Licanse plate in the window flew out and hit the rear seat. I could cut 1.69 60' with ease. but with the Cams I struggle at cutting 1.8's
and I can't even move the licanse plate.

[stkjock]

Scott - FWIW, over the past winter I turned up the boost on my car, while on the dyno the tuner calls me and asks permission to swap the plugs (HT0s with maybe 6000 miles), I say go ahead, no other changes done new plugs = +28hp increase!

[ArtQ]

Scott, what does your AF read at idle?

[chad05gt]

put a/f on BOTH banks at same time when do dyno/datalog

who did install?

did you give Wes at Total Performance Solutions a email/pm/call?

are both short terms and loads reading correctly?

did you do compression check?

change coils/plugs/injectors... each side at a time (of each; yes 9 combos/runs/datalogs) to see??


it takes ALOT of time and patience to get these bugs worked out.

[2k05gt]

Scott, what does your AF read at idle?

about 14.5



put a/f on BOTH banks at same time when do dyno/datalog I only have one Bung welded in

who did install? I Did

did you give Wes at Total Performance Solutions a email/pm/call? I am out of money for the year and can't afford more tunes. I have over 900.00 into them now

are both short terms and loads reading correctly? Yes

did you do compression check? No, But I should, I have 72,500 miles

change coils/plugs/injectors... each side at a time (of each; yes 9 combos/runs/datalogs) to see?? ??? Wow thats a lot of work.


it takes ALOT of time and patience to get these bugs worked out.

[ArtQ]

Well that's good. I am with the other guys, try a set of fresh plugs.

[dragpac]

do you pre load the converter or do you flash it .try flashing it

[chad05gt]

next time you are on dyno, be sure they use a/f in both... Not your bung! lol, BUT the 02 sensors.

I chased a short for a long time, all seemed good... but when both a/f... ONE was perfect, the other 15% rich!!! YES... WOW!!!

Check as much as you can, usually something little, or a combo of small things that make these cars run like POO


Agreed, start w/ plugs... while you are there... unplug, and plug inj, coils, etc... cant hurt... look for grounds... double check all the little things.

Best of luck.

[2k05gt]

do you pre load the converter or do you flash it .try flashing it
I have tried that as well, it's not the Converter that I can tell. the car will net revv up quick between 3000 - 4000 rpm. John and Laura heard it while watching at the track Saturday. Todd heard it as well, maybe they can explain it better than I.

Chad and Art, Thanks, I will try the Plugs this weekend

[spyder7724]

I've talked to Charlie a bunch about what he was going through. I'm pretty convinced that he had one cam installed incorrectly(wrong timing mark). he had one bank super richand never got it straightbut when they reinstalled the stock cams that issue wasn't there anymore. with VCT the ecm will try to fix the problem as much as it can so thats why he still made more power but during the launch the VCT works with the Drive by wire and traction control torque commands so if one of those is off it'll screw everything up. it also may be that particular run of that cam grind is off. stranger things have happened.
did you lose any power down low with new cams if so that will explain the e.t. loss but not the mph cause even with a gain in peak power mph should be up. interesting problem especially since it's happened twice now unsure if Charlie's is related to yours but sure does sound similar.

[2k05gt]

I've talked to Charlie a bunch about what he was going through. I'm pretty convinced that he had one cam installed incorrectly(wrong timing mark). he had one bank super richand never got it straightbut when they reinstalled the stock cams that issue wasn't there anymore. with VCT the ecm will try to fix the problem as much as it can so thats why he still made more power but during the launch the VCT works with the Drive by wire and traction control torque commands so if one of those is off it'll screw everything up. it also may be that particular run of that cam grind is off. stranger things have happened.
did you lose any power down low with new cams if so that will explain the e.t. loss but not the mph cause even with a gain in peak power mph should be up. interesting problem especially since it's happened twice now unsure if Charlie's is related to yours but sure does sound similar.

Not sure, but the timing mark? the Cams are Keyed and can only go in one way. I am not sure what you mean by this. I never removed the Phaser Gear, I wedged the chain and pulled the cam off the gear and replaced it with Comp Cam. Could the Cams have different grinds? the passanger Cam is older than the Drivers side? do they need to be matched? the Miss match was due to one being damaged during install.

I overlayed the Cams Dyno on the Dyno Tune Sheet from Last July by Doug. I matched up the RPM and Power Scale.
You can see the flat line in torque between 3000 - 4000 thats almost what I feel.

I overlayed the Cams Dyno on the Dyno Tune Sheet from Last July by Doug. I matched up the RPM and Power Scale.
You can see the flat line in torque between 3000 - 4000 thats almost what I feel.

The Red Line is the Dyno with Cams

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/MUSTANG/CamsDynooverlay.jpg

[ArtQ]

Interesting stuff about Charlies cams..........

[MarcSpaz]

Scott, those cams are ground with such a fine tolerance, that you would never notice a diff. You would be hard pressed to measure any variation.

If you want to pull your plugs and valve covers, we can mic them and hit them with the digital dial to check them. I have all the tools.

[chad05gt]

Check for shorts... when I had my short, one left band was 15% richer... swapped plugs, inj, coils... of each side... spent hours... no dice.

The next day, after wasting great cond. at the track, found the short.

Would have swore it acted like a valve spring ex had pooped out..., just a daggum short.


True story.

[ArtQ]

"interesting problem especially since it's happened twice now unsure if Charlie's is related to yours but sure does sound similar."



Scott, maybe you can contact Charlie and he can fill you in on the details?

[2k05gt]

"interesting problem especially since it's happened twice now unsure if Charlie's is related to yours but sure does sound similar."



Scott, maybe you can contact Charlie and he can fill you in on the details?

I did Contact him and here is what he said.
But he was using 127500 with Springs mine are the 127200 XFI NSR



I actually changed converter's and tried everything. After I put the new converter in I didn't see anything either. so, I pulled out the cams and put the stock ones back in the car. Now, unfortunately the converter is a little tight and I am not getting the same 60' times. However, I didn't think the cams did what they say at the track. It made good power on the dyno, but didn't perform at the track at all in my opinion. I will be going with a PI converter for the spring to see what happens.

Charlie

[MarcSpaz]

All I ever did ith the NSR's in my car was match my PB, but never beat it.

[2k05gt]

All I ever did ith the NSR's in my car was match my PB, but never beat it.

If I remember back then your Personal Best was on Race Gas and your Hot tune? Your Cam tune was Dougs Dyno Tune

[MarcSpaz]

You are correct. I was running very lean on race fuel and a crazy amount of timing. IIRC, it was 12.844.

The race fuel was killing my plugs and O2 sensors so I ditch the VP and installed the cams & LT's. After spending months of dialing the car and getting used to the setup, my best on pump gas and the NSR's were 12.891.

[2k05gt]

You are correct. I was running very lean on race fuel and a crazy amount of timing. IIRC, it was 12.844.

The race fuel was killing my plugs and O2 sensors so I ditch the VP and installed the cams & LT's. After spending months of dialing the car and getting used to the setup, my best on pump gas and the NSR's were 12.891.

Everyone says you pickup 2/10ths and 3 mph with these Cams so again I was not expecting any big numbers but to loose 4/10ths and 4 mph is the wrong way

[chad05gt]

took me several track sessions to get better w/ cams.

how many runs do you have?

do you drive any different? (this was my Everest, I was 'hard wired' to driving the hell out of the stock combo for years!)

Had to reteach my hand/foot/ear shifting...

Did NOT come easy!!

July, 12.60's w/ stock cams and heads, didnt better until March... yea...

[2k05gt]

took me several track sessions to get better w/ cams.

how many runs do you have?

do you drive any different? (this was my Everest, I was 'hard wired' to driving the hell out of the stock combo for years!)

Had to reteach my hand/foot/ear shifting...

Did NOT come easy!!

July, 12.60's w/ stock cams and heads, didnt better until March... yea...

I have about 10 runs with cams, I only get better times when I add timing to the tune. I used to launch so hard the licanse plate on my dash would fly into the back seat, now I can't even get it to move. I think the issue has more to do eith the tune, the car lost way to much low end where I notice it on the street as well.

[chad05gt]

I have about 10 runs with cams, I only get better times when I add timing to the tune. I used to launch so hard the licanse plate on my dash would fly into the back seat, now I can't even get it to move. I think the issue has more to do eith the tune, the car lost way to much low end where I notice it on the street as well.\


leave at 5-6K, unless have pro tuning software from Ford, do not mess w/ handheld... too much crap effected when play w/ those parameters... ends up canceling 'quicker', and being LESS in the end.

[2k05gt]

leave at 5-6K, unless have pro tuning software from Ford, do not mess w/ handheld... too much crap effected when play w/ those parameters... ends up canceling 'quicker', and being LESS in the end.

I can only Stall up to 3000 RPM I have a TCI Super Street Fighter 3500 in the Stock 5R55S. I have just a Dyno Tune from Bamachips and a Dyno Tune from Excessive Motorsport here local...

I am going to try to get another Datalog with Airfuel, I made a Cable for my AEM so I hope to hit the track this weekend.

If the log does not show anything I will have to pull the cams and go back to the stock cams and leave it at that.

[chad05gt]

I can only Stall up to 3000 RPM I have a TCI Super Street Fighter 3500 in the Stock 5R55S. I have just a Dyno Tune from Bamachips and a Dyno Tune from Excessive Motorsport here local...

I am going to try to get another Datalog with Airfuel, I made a Cable for my AEM so I hope to hit the track this weekend.

If the log does not show anything I will have to pull the cams and get built heads and custom cams and leave it at that.


fixt!


Auto, forgot. My apologies...

[rygen]

May need to make sure the shift schedule is optimized, make sure its staying in its powerband before it shifts.

[2k05gt]

May need to make sure the shift schedule is optimized, make sure its staying in its powerband before it shifts.

Still the Same, Doug Sent me another tune with a bit more timing added, and the results were what I expected. I wish I knew how to work with the shift Schedules but the Tuner does not let me do that very well.

Here are the timeslips for today.

1st Run
50 F 74% Humid 30.30 In -290 D/A

60'.....1.884
330....5.316
1/8.....8.162
mph...86.03
1000..10.663
1/4....12.789
mph...105.93



2nd Run
51 F 74% Humid 30.31 In -280 D/A
Added Timing down low and 2% lean. (I guess the Tune is at it's Limits)
But the Wideband cable Works Yea ....

60'.....1.858
330....5.316
1/8.....8.181
mph...85.51
1000..10.695
1/4....12.878
mph...103.94


Last Year Nov 19, 2008 SAME DA (-295)..Without CAMS

60'.....1.725
330....5.044
1/8.....7.828
mph...87.94
1000..10.262
1/4....12.328
mph...108.88



60'.....1.698
330....5.016
1/8.....7.789
mph...89.47
1000..10.128
1/4....12.299
mph...110.06

If no one can Figure out the tune than I guess I will Pull the Cams and replace with the Stock Cams. These things are Not worth shit for racing,
if all you want is sound then get Cams but if you race and Auto don't get them. I will have to look for another way to get to 11's N/A ..

[chad05gt]

OR, get a 5000 stall.... :woot:

[ArtQ]

Scott, pull the cams, you have to eliminate something at this point. Starting to lean toward the Cams being questionable with the autos myself...

[rygen]

OR, get a 5000 stall.... :woot:

Gonna heat up the trans too much for daily street driving.

Starting to lean towards what Art said.

[2k05gt]

Scott, pull the cams, you have to eliminate something at this point. Starting to lean toward the Cams being questionable with the autos myself...

Yea. I just think they take too much from low end and since you can't get the RPM's high enough to launch it's killing the ET's

CONGRATS on 11's Man Finally !!!


Gonna heat up the trans too much for daily street driving.

Starting to lean towards what Art said.

IT's a Shame because I picked up some nice HP with them.
I will order the Phaser bolts and swap them out in the next week or two.

[chad05gt]

Gonna heat up the trans too much for daily street driving.

Starting to lean towards what Art said.



Dude, that was a joke... drinkin' eh?!?! :drunk:
NICE! :coolup:





What gear are you running??

[2k05gt]

Dude, that was a joke... drinkin' eh?!?! :drunk:
NICE! :coolup:


What gear are you running??

I have 4.10 Gears, Not Going to 4.56, the 5R55S likes 4.10's that it.
anything more and the auto fails

Current Mods -
JLT II CAI (BamaChips 93 Tune)
Comp Cams 127200 NSR
Steeda UDP's
Steeda CMDP
JBA Long Tube Headers
JBA Catted X-pipe
FRPP GTA Mufflers
FRPP 4.10 Gears
Spyder Aluminum DS
TCI Super Street Fighter 3500 Converter
CHE Lower Control Arm
Steeda Adj UCA
LPW Differential Cover Girdle
Eaton TrueTrac Locker
275/50x17 M&H Drag Radials

[rygen]

Dude, that was a joke... drinkin' eh?!?! :drunk:
NICE! :coolup:


Who...me????

***looks at the empty Sam Adams Winter Lager bottles..... ***

[chad05gt]

gotcha... thats ALOT of work, just to get back even.

Id wait till you get heads, shortblock, poweradder... and THEN do the swap just ONE more time.

Someone will ALWAYS give you a couple bucks for the NSR's.

JMO

Im hating this for you. It sucks. We all have, and will again, be there.

Take care, and best of luck.







I have 4.10 Gears, Not Going to 4.56, the 5R55S likes 4.10's that it.
anything more and the auto fails

Current Mods -
JLT II CAI (BamaChips 93 Tune)
Comp Cams 127200 NSR
Steeda UDP's
Steeda CMDP
JBA Long Tube Headers
JBA Catted X-pipe
FRPP GTA Mufflers
FRPP 4.10 Gears
Spyder Aluminum DS
TCI Super Street Fighter 3500 Converter
CHE Lower Control Arm
Steeda Adj UCA
LPW Differential Cover Girdle
Eaton TrueTrac Locker
275/50x17 M&H Drag Radials

[2k05gt]

Well I have been working with a tuner and he is 99% sure the Cams are installed Correctly, the Tune is where it should be but the car still lags for a couple of seconds after launch then it takes off..

Here is a Video

YouTube- IMG_0561.MOV

I replaced the 2 front O2 Sensors because the Passanger side what was reading wierd numbers and sometimes zeroed out. My wideband now works better and the A/F ratio is more stable, does not hunt around.

Well we will see this weekend how it runs

Here is a Video before the CAM Install This was my Average runs not my best.
YouTube- Scott 12.4 run

[boss281]

Well, after running my same old personal best over and over and over again last weekend at superstallions, I finally blew the dust off my 127500 cams I've had sitting in the garage, threw in the box of Comp #26125 beehive springs and limiters, and drove the thing over to JJs to swap out the troublesome early grind 127300s. They've never given me the top end power advertised, and the low end grunt seemed forever lost.

JJ calls me up today and asks what springs did I use on the 127300s? I said the comp 26113 springs. He seemed to think they looked like the stockers. Uh oh. Did I screw up somewhere? That would explain some of the power loss across the band (valve float, etc).

Don't know for sure, but it's possible the early release springs were the problem, not the cam. We'll know for certain in a while I guess.

It's been a rough year with that damn cam set, that's for sure. When my headers went in, the car was a fucking beast. The cams just sucked the life out of it. Laura's car is a sling shot with the delete plates/longtubes/alum driveshaft, and if her 60 foots get any lower she's an easy mid twelves, perhaps lower. She ran an easy 12.7 at 111mph, with a 1.9 sixty!!!

The mystery continues....

[MarcSpaz]

Scott, don't forget to clear your adaptive tables. Disconnect the battery for about 10 minutes and follow the directions for after a battery change in the owners manual.

John, those 127500's are really going to wake that car up on the top-end. The new springs are a great idea too. Good luck bro. Can't wait to see what JJ can do with it.

[2k05gt]

Scott, don't forget to clear your adaptive tables. Disconnect the battery for about 10 minutes and follow the directions for after a battery change in the owners manual.

John, those 127500's are really going to wake that car up on the top-end. The new springs are a great idea too. Good luck bro. Can't wait to see what JJ can do with it.

I reflash my tune everytime to the tables are not an issue,

[boss281]

Alas, still apart so I'll be waving from the grandstands fellas...

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/jwgroovin/cams.jpg

[2k05gt]

Alas, still apart so I'll be waving from the grandstands fellas...

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/jwgroovin/cams.jpg

Oh Bummer, She's Topless ....:omfg:

[2k05gt]

I have had it.. Car is going back to stock, I am selling it...
I am tired of pissing away money and time on this POS over 1 year and no one can figure it out or even wants to try, I have had it...

The Trans may be the issue, or maybe the converter, who knows.. but not willing to buy another trans or converter and try it, thats more money out the window.. I am done...

[boss281]

I have had it.. Car is going back to stock, I am selling it...
I am tired of pissing away money and time on this POS over 1 year and no one can figure it out or even wants to try, I have had it...

The Trans may be the issue, or maybe the converter, who knows.. but not willing to buy another trans or converter and try it, thats more money out the window.. I am done...

I've been where you are. What happened? Did you put the stock cams back in? Still having a problem?

When my new cams went in a few weeks back, my first runs at the track were the EXACT same times I always got, no matter what I did. Talk to Laura, she'll tell you I was ready to put a "Nice low 12 second street Mustang" on the market. I happened to send my dyno sheet to Lee Bender at C&L. He fired back a response about the dips in the torque curve, and mentioned a "secret" problem in SCT software that you don't see back to back in Diablosport programmers. I took that to JJ, he made the changes after unloading his Lightning from the trailer, and I dropped 3/10s at the fucking track, right there, right then. My torque had fattened up, the cams came online HARD, 60 fts dropped back to the 1.5s, and my race to 11s was back on. Who would have known had I not sent my dyno results to someone who happened to hear about a weird, little known issue in SCT base calibrations?

Scott, I'm still chasing shifting problems ever since I put in a Spec2+. I haven't had a smooth shifter in 2 years. I just bought two barely used sets of stock flywheels and clutches because Art convinced me the basic aftermarket setups are absolute crap. He's been through so many clutches and has had that car torn down so many times I'm sure he's dead on. Sometimes I've felt like taking a sledge hammer to my expensive shifter, but it's not the shifter, and it's probably not even my bad driving. A little more time and effort, swap out the clutch and flywheel and I'll know once and for all. Maybe.

Point is Scott, you have a low 12 second car that has a Gremlin. I'm going to toss something out there: talk to JJ. JJ has NEVER left a customer hanging, has integrety and pride in his work. You know, it just MIGHT be your tranny and MIGHT be your converter (have the old one still???) but this is your baby. Don't give up on it man. Hell, a used tranny can be had for a bit over $500, I'll lend you that if you want. I keep that much as my "emergency" car fund (you know, tires, brakes, etc that go out when you least expect it).

Let me know when you are blowing off steam, I get it, I really do, and let your friends work with you on this. we haven't lined up against each other for a long time, and both our cars are sitting pretty much the same. Let's just fix the damn car and move on.

[2k05gt]

John,
I replaced the stock cams and had the same issue, but messed up the install and scared the cams and cam tower, so I replaced te tower and put the comp cams back on, I had to replace a Phaser selonoid as well.

I Just got back from the Shop (Excessive Motorsports)
We did A Compression Test and Cylinder 2 on the passenger side has 90 PSI all the others have 120 psi so it looks like a valve job is in order. Were not sure if the bad exhaust valve spring would cause the low power at launch that I am experiencing but it's possable, Any Thoughts?

Should I have the heads redone, upgrade the valves and springs or trade the car in?
Thanks for the offer John, I am still steaming with this new news as well...

BTW I still owe you some beer man..

[boss281]

I have a spare set of heads. They are yours come get them. I'll find another set somewhere else...

[2k05gt]

I have a spare set of heads. They are yours come get them. I'll find another set somewhere else...

You can have mine when I am done, I was looking for heads to get the work done quicker and less downtime.

[boss281]

I'm home all weekend, cleaning up the two Stangs and the house. If you want to use them to get your car going again, come and get em...see PM for the address.

John

[2k05gt]

Thanks for the Heads, as soon as I get them cleaned up and resurfaced, toss in some good springs I should be running again...

PS My Compression test was flawed, I did not press the throttle to WOT while doing the test...

[2k05gt]

Duh.... No... I was reaching in a cranking the engine for 5 seconds.
I smell a re-test in the air

Leak down test on all Cylinders are Normal no leaks
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/Leakdowntest.jpg


I did the Compression tests over again, I ran one from the Directions from the Matco CT60K Compression Tester

http://www.matcotools.com/ProductImages/ct60k.jpg

I states to lossen all the Plugs one turn, then remove the desired plug and insert the test tube, then hold the Throttle body open and crank the engine five times. repeat one each cylinder.
These numbers were all over the place, 60 psi on left and 120 on the right then 90 on the right and 120 left. I tried each cylinder 5 times and they all read different numbers... Marcspaz Called and said to crank the engine till the neddle stops, so I did this test on all Cylinders. Results

1 - 210 PSI
2 - 215 PSI
3 - 211 PSI
4 - 215 PSI
5 - 215 PSI
6 - 212 PSI
7 - 211 PSI
8 - 215 PSI

I can see no issues there. So it looks like I am back to the drawing board.
Then Todd (Rygen) Called and said it still acts like bad Valve Springs.

I decided not to replace the heads, The shop wants 2000.00 (Labor) to replace the heads so that is out. So looks like Springs and see how it goes, I have been practicing on the heads I got from Boss281.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/ValveRemoveStep1.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/ValveRemoveStep2.jpg

Success..

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/PDRM2311.jpg

[2k05gt]

I made the Tool to pressurize the Cylinder, what do ya think?

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/PDRM2318.jpg

[MarcSpaz]

Not bad. Leave the air on and set to like 90-120 psi. This way if you bumb the valve down by mistake, maybe the flow of air from the tank will help blow it back up instead of the chamber losing pressure and the valve falling in.

[2k05gt]

Not bad. Leave the air on and set to like 90-120 psi. This way if you bumb the valve down by mistake, maybe the flow of air from the tank will help blow it back up instead of the chamber losing pressure and the valve falling in.

I am still worried about that, I wonder if I should just use the Rope trick..

Here are some prices I am finding on the COMP CAMS springs.

From Atlantic Speed $363.71
COMP Cams 26113-24 Ford 4.6L 3 Valve SOHC Valve Springs (http://unlimitedspeed.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=4384&idcategory=0) $274.88
COMP Cams 710-24 Ford 4.6L 3 Valve Steel Valve Spring Retainers (http://www.atlanticspeed.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=4391) $76.88
Shipping Ground $11.95

From PMP $365.59
Comp Cams 05-07 GT Beehive Valve Springs (24) (http://www.pmpparts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=229) $259.95<O:p</O:p
Comp Cams 05-07 GT Steel Retainers (24) (http://www.pmpparts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_4_44&products_id=230) $89.95 <O:p
Shipping Ground $15.69

From Bryunspeed $367.44
COMP Cams Beehive Performance Street [26113-24] (http://www.byunspeed.com/product_info.php?products_id=4614&osCsid=753ca4542122c7da417868a627fd8aac) $274.75
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=pageHeading vAlign=top>COMP Cams Steel Retainers (http://www.byunspeed.com/product_info.php?cPath=2527_1170_1281&products_id=4615&osCsid=753ca4542122c7da417868a627fd8aac)[700-24] (http://www.byunspeed.com/product_info.php?cPath=2527_1170_1281&products_id=4615&osCsid=753ca4542122c7da417868a627fd8aac) $92.69</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Shipping Free $0.00</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[MarcSpaz]

You know, those springs are only good for .5" lift and the cams you have are .45" lift.

Using the rule of going 120% for MOE, you need something good for at least .54" lift or you will be in the same boat very soon... maybe as soon as 20,000 miles.

Who knows, I could be wrong and you could get another 80,000, but I would not want to take the chance.

[2k05gt]

You know, those springs are only good for .5" lift and the cams you have are .45" lift.

Using the rule of going 120% for MOE, you need something good for at least .54" lift or you will be in the same boat very soon... maybe as soon as 20,000 miles.

Who knows, I could be wrong and you could get another 80,000, but I would not want to take the chance.

No the Comp Springs are good for a .550 Lift

Part Number: 26113-24
Top OD: .959
Bottom OD: 1.061
Top ID: .636
Bottom ID: .738
Seat Load: 93 @ 1.570
Open Load: 198 @ 1.020
Coil Bind: .952
Rate (lbs/in): 191
Max Lift: .550"
Retainers: Steel (1723, 700, 792) Titanium (702, 791)

[MarcSpaz]

Gotcha... I was thinking of the stock replacements... You are corrrect.

[2k05gt]

Ok, I started to prep the valve train to replace the Springs and as I was removing the followers I found an interesting item.....

One of the Keepers got loose and is no Longer where is should be... the follower was banging around on the retainer.
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/KeeperFail.jpg

any ideas, comments or suggestions on the Valve? Bent or damaged?

Could this have cause the performance issue that I am having?

[MarcSpaz]

Damn bro... I am sorry about that. I think that is the source of the problem. You still need to replace the springs though.

[boss281]

Scott, I'm lost on what you are doing at this point. Did you ever put those stock heads you picked up from me on the car with stock cams? Wasn't that the idea to see if that improved on some of the problems, or at least get your car running? What are you building here????

[2k05gt]

Scott, I'm lost on what you are doing at this point. Did you ever put those stock heads you picked up from me on the car with stock cams? Wasn't that the idea to see if that improved on some of the problems, or at least get your car running? What are you building here????

I am trying to get to that point, I was going to replace the Valves and springs on your heads, but found out the Excessive MS wants 2000.00 to replace the heads, thats if I buy the Bolts, gaskets Ect.. I can't swing that right now, so I was going to replace the springs for now and see if that fixes my problem, while I am in there I was going to check the timing chain and build a motor for future install.

I did not know that replacing the heads was going to cost that much, but now that I found this issue I may be going down that road, if the Valve is damaged then I must pull the heads to replace it and if I have to go there then I might as well replace the heads.

[2k05gt]

I was researching the install of the heads, I might beable to do it myself, I was talking to a neighbor who is a machinest, he took the heads and is polishing the intake and exhaust runners, he will also resurface the heads for reinstall. I just ordered the Ford Racing Head Bolts that are reusable not torque to yeild.

I am serously considering this option, I am worried that the valve with the bad retainer is damaged. My only issue is the downtime, I am short a car for work because my saturn's motor is shot and I need to replace it.

[2k05gt]

I was able to turn the engine over by hand about 30 times to get the chain links to line up. I was hoping to check the timing this way, does the timing look right?

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/Timing.jpg

[MarcSpaz]

They look dead on to me.

[2k05gt]

John was right, My path was to replace the heads with his to see if it fixes my issue, but since the install cost was not in my budget I decided to go the second route, that is to replace the springs and check the timing. Now it looks like the timing is fine and the bad spring / missing keeper this may have been my problem be cause the car acted the same way with the stock cams. I took the bad spring and retainer off, tied a tie to the valve and realesed the pressure, I spun the valve around and it wobbles, it looks like the upper seal / guide is bad so I am going to Plan A with a modified plan B

1) I put the springs on the heads john loaned me, I take the risk and do a head replacment myself (I have not had luck doing this)

2) Or I replace the guide seal on my current heads, then do the springs with hopes the lower guide seal is ok.

[MarcSpaz]

If the valve stem is not straight... replace the heads. That valve is damaged and you dont replace it, you will be in the same spot 2 months from now.

Since it is bent, it is not going to open all the way, it won't have the correct seat pressure, and you will never be happy with it.

I'll come over on the weekends and help you. I have already done heads on these cars. Rebuild the ones John gave you and lets do it...

[2k05gt]

OK the Heads are Back from the Machine Shop, I removed the headers and am ready to pull the timing chain, How do I lock the tensioners?

[MarcSpaz]

I just removed them. I could not find the locking clips.

[2k05gt]

Got my Heads Back, I started to install the Springs and clean the Valves up. So Anyone want to help me put this thing back together? it's in peices all over my garage..

BTW the Keepers are a PITA and the COMP Springs are alot stronger and are harder to compress..

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/Spring1.jpg

[2k05gt]

Well after two days I got the Comp Beehive Valve Springs in and Cams on, Block is cleaned up..
here are some pics

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/Block2.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/Valve1.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/Cam1.jpg

Tonight I got the Heads on the Car, Bolted and torqued on and ready to go.

Hope I got the Timing on the first shot..

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/June22.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/cranktime1.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/r-camtime.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/l-camtime.jpg


Wednesday I will replace the front cover, bolt up the headers, clean up some more stuff, Hope I get her running thursday or friday..

[boss281]

Wow! Real progress. Crossing my fingers...

[stkjock]

good luck Scott!

[2k05gt]

Thanks Guys..
I got a Late start tonight, had a co-worker leaving so we all met up at the American Tap Room for a few drinks.

I got the headers bolted on, front cover on.. I found a bad wire on the alternator so took some time to fix it. slow progress,

It's my Birthday today so well see how much I get done tonight...

[Casey4s]

I hope you make it Scott... good luck to you Sir.

I see you do have the proper tools in that one pic, the cold beer and a claw hammer what else does a man need?

[2k05gt]

Good news, the Engine Runs, Bad News the Radiator leaks, I must have hit it with the fan shrowed. looks like it will have to wait to race another day

[Casey4s]

Good news, the Engine Runs, Bad News the Radiator leaks, I must have hit it with the fan shrowed. looks like it will have to wait to race another day

What a friggin bummer after all that work on your B'day to get it ready and more shit happens to you.

[2k05gt]

I found a radiator local and got it installed.. I drove the car around for a long cruise and noticed that the Temps on the Aeroforce interceptor reads about 220 deg it used to run about 190. should I be concerned?

On another note the car runs good. I have not stepped on it yet, I was going to give the gaskets and springs time to settle in..

[Brumby]

Thanks Guys..
I got a Late start tonight, had a co-worker leaving so we all met up at the American Tap Room for a few drinks.

I got the headers bolted on, front cover on.. I found a bad wire on the alternator so took some time to fix it. slow progress,

It's my Birthday today so well see how much I get done tonight...

Happy Birthday...:coolup:

[MarcSpaz]

I think the rad is too small dude. 220 is borderline too hot

[2k05gt]

As some of you know, I have been having a terrible time trying to find what is causing my hesitation at launch. My car is a 2005 Mustang GT with a 2008 5R55S

So I decided to replace the Comp 127200 Cams with the stock cams and I found this. (see video below)

so I pulled the heads and removed the valve, you can see the bent tip in the video below

http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Videos/?action=view&current=BentValve.mp4

(http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Videos/?action=view&current=BentValve.mp4)
I put a set of used heads on and Comp behive springs, cleaned it up and the car still runs the same, 2 second lag off the line.

I have tried with stock cams as well and the problem still exists.
the same time I put the cams in I also replaced my trashed (70,000 mile) 5R55S with a low milage used 5R55S and I reused the TCI Super Street Fighter 3500 converter.

The 5R55S is out of a 2008 GT and my car is an 2005, just wondering about compatability?

This has been going on for over a year without resolution, I have had over 1000.00 in tunes (Dyno and Mail order) a head swap and still I am back to where I started. I am so tired of this, does anyone have any ideas? The car drives fine as a daily driver so I can't justify more money from the wife. Any ideas please...

Oh ya now the Radiator issue, I sat in traffic today and it overheated so now the radiator is too small (must have given me a V6 Rad)

I am seriously thinking about returning to stock and buying another car in the future.

[2k05gt]

I checked with 1800 Radiator and they said the radiator I got was the correct one for the GT, so what is next. what could I have done wrong to cause the over heating problems? the fan runs constant and the temps keep climbing.

No water in the oil and no oil in the Radiator, the car has zero power, I step on it and it goes nowhere. Lots of ticking noises and detonation under load, I guess the motor is shot.

[2k05gt]

Well it's been a month and I replace the TStat, radiator (again) and still the engine is overheating after I do WOT for 5 seconds the temps will not stop rising until I shut the engine off for a few hours.

could I have a head gasket seep? what could I have done wrong? I made sure the timing was correct, the gaskets were correct, I checked everything and still it overheats

[Brumby]

As some of you know, I have been having a terrible time trying to find what is causing my hesitation at launch. My car is a 2005 Mustang GT with a 2008 5R55S

So I decided to replace the Comp 127200 Cams with the stock cams and I found this. (see video below)

so I pulled the heads and removed the valve, you can see the bent tip in the video below

http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Videos/?action=view&current=BentValve.mp4

(http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Videos/?action=view&current=BentValve.mp4)
I put a set of used heads on and Comp behive springs, cleaned it up and the car still runs the same, 2 second lag off the line.

I have tried with stock cams as well and the problem still exists.
the same time I put the cams in I also replaced my trashed (70,000 mile) 5R55S with a low milage used 5R55S and I reused the TCI Super Street Fighter 3500 converter.

The 5R55S is out of a 2008 GT and my car is an 2005, just wondering about compatability?

This has been going on for over a year without resolution, I have had over 1000.00 in tunes (Dyno and Mail order) a head swap and still I am back to where I started. I am so tired of this, does anyone have any ideas? The car drives fine as a daily driver so I can't justify more money from the wife. Any ideas please...

Oh ya now the Radiator issue, I sat in traffic today and it overheated so now the radiator is too small (must have given me a V6 Rad)

I am seriously thinking about returning to stock and buying another car in the future.

There's that word again 'Converter'....:omfg:

What was the deciding factor that you went with a 3500 :confused:

We did not do OUR homework before we put in a 2800-3000 converter and subsequently 'Tara' ran slower.

Google "Turbo Action"
http://www.turboaction.com/frame.html (something like that)

Read 'Don't Stall Around'

Ray McNews had to data logging on the converter.
After 5 hours and 7 runs, 'Tara' is now ready....

Once we get good weather, we'll report back.

[rygen]

Bob, if you recall I suggested a 3500 rpm stall for your car. I bet you would have cut better 60's with it. Tony ran the 3500 with great results.

[Brumby]

Bob, if you recall I suggested a 3500 rpm stall for your car. I bet you would have cut better 60's with it. Tony ran the 3500 with great results.

Ouch.....:omfg:

[rygen]

Meant no offense man, you are the man to keep digging into the 11's with the 4.0. Other than Jenna, no one else is close.

[Brumby]

Meant no offense man, you are the man to keep digging into the 11's with the 4.0. Other than Jenna, no one else is close.

No offense taken....:)
Our plans have not changed. Still looking for that 11.7 :omfg:

Numidia on Saturday had good consecutive mph, not bad 60's but there is still more needed....


We'll start up a thread tonight...
Back to work today...:(

[2k05gt]

Today I swapped the crossover pipe and replaced the water pump, a few new hoses and .... Still Over heats... So I drained the engine again of coolant and started to Pull the Heads again...

Man I hate this. I am in to this head swap for about 1200.00 bucks with Tools, parts, gaskets, head cleaning and fluids.

Still need to sell a spare Radiator and I am not even done yet, Mean while I pulled the plugs and noticed Oil in Number one plug the rest looked clean.

[MarcSpaz]

Dude... stop screwing around and garage the car until you can get a replacement engine. I see stock engines all the time for under a grand.

[boss281]

Scott, you've chased down a lot of gremlins. Are you sure the temp gauge is working properly or the sensor itself? You've verified the thermostat's working, no leaky head gasket, fan works, radiator swapped. Water pump is good? No pinched hoses? I remember cat trouble--if they are clogged the temp will skyrocket.

Could it be some BS in the tune? Have you tried the stock tune, just for grins?

[2k05gt]

Scott, you've chased down a lot of gremlins. Are you sure the temp gauge is working properly or the sensor itself? You've verified the thermostat's working, no leaky head gasket, fan works, radiator swapped. Water pump is good? No pinched hoses? I remember cat trouble--if they are clogged the temp will skyrocket.

Could it be some BS in the tune? Have you tried the stock tune, just for grins?

1) The temp guage is working because when it overheats I geta wrench light
2) The T-Stat is new and working
3) The Fan works in both speeds
4) New Radiator was installed
5) New Water Pump installed
6) No Pinched hoses and are new.
7) Cats are fine, I checked them no rattling
8) I have tried 3 Tunes so far I can not go to the stock tune because the CMDP and CAI throw codes.
9) The Head Gasket is the only thing left to check, so I am pulling the heads and replacing the Felpro gaskets with the FRPP ones I bought from the dealer.

Thanks

[2k05gt]

Dude... stop screwing around and garage the car until you can get a replacement engine. I see stock engines all the time for under a grand.

Dude I can't Garage it.. It's my Only Car and I need to get to work, this week is the last week I can work on the car, Marcia Starts teaching again the week after, so I have the Hybrid this week only, after that I will be thumbing it.

I read on line today this comment from an automotive Forum

I had a problem with my KA24E overheating, replaced everything anybody ever thought of doing. The car would get real hot in about 15 minutes of driving. You could pop the hood and my coolant would be boiling inside the resvoir. Pop the top to the radiator and no coolant was moving. Check the termostat, it wasn't that. Turns out it was my head gasket. I used one of those felt-pro head gaskets(official gasket of Nascar). The gasket wasn't cut out right for the head. I bought the whole rebuild kit funny that was the only thing that didn't fit right. Hope that helps somewhat.

[MarcSpaz]

man, that sucks...

[2k05gt]

Damn if it's not one thing it's another, the darn chain tensioner broke, just fell apart. More Money...

I spent 120 bucks on the Fel-Pro Gaskets alone and 40 bucks on the tty bolts, the FRPP ones come with TTY bolts for 79.00 go figure...

[2k05gt]

I pulled the head and did not find anything interesting, of course I have no idea what to look for...

I did notice that the Pistons and head were coated with carbon / oil mix only after 500 miles? strange

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/IMG_0373.jpg

It matches up visual wise with this one so I think the gaskets are correct

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy127/tmcolegr/100_0953.jpg


http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/IMG_0374.jpg

Another thing that I noticed, the Stock gaskets are 3 peice the Felpros are 4 peice? http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/2k05gt/Writeup/IMG_0375.jpg

Marc,
If you have some time this weekend I could use your expertise to make sure I am doing this right

Todd,
Got cold beer inthe fridge, Hint Hint

[MarcSpaz]

Sure, I can swing by... Saturday Night when it cools off might be good.

[2k05gt]

Sure, I can swing by... Saturday Night when it cools off might be good.

Saturday is going to be in the low 80's Very Nice Day..
I hope the head gasgets will be in Thursday or Friday at Ford.
I also may want to buy the Motorcraft Metal Surface Prep ZC-31
just to be on the safe side.

[2k05gt]

I had a shop do a cooling system Pressure test and the results were, well not Good. It is a crack in the head, leaks into the Passanger side Exhaust Manifold. the crack opens up when heat is applied.
He said I should have done an Die test on the head before install. Oh well.
That settles it, it's time for a decission. He's not sure how long it will last but I need new heads, I have no money for it right now and I really do not want to go through the head swap again.

I have no idea what to do.. If I had a DD I would let it sit but I don't.
I am depressed..:(

[boss281]

This is a crack in one of the heads >>I<< gave you????

[2k05gt]

This is a crack in one of the heads >>I<< gave you????

Yup the Passanger side

[Casey4s]

What's the current status on your car? Have you replaced the heads yet?

I sure hope this works out for you...

If you need help let me know, I am no expert but I can turn a wrench and follow instructions.

[2k05gt]

What's the current status on your car? Have you replaced the heads yet?

I sure hope this works out for you...

If you need help let me know, I am no expert but I can turn a wrench and follow instructions.

I do not have the money now to do anything with the car, I am driving it because I have to, it runs Hot but has not overheated. I will have to save up for repairs down the road.

[Casey4s]

I do not have the money now to do anything with the car, I am driving it because I have to, it runs Hot but has not overheated. I will have to save up for repairs down the road.

Yeah that's what I figured after talking to you at the BK car show yesterday.

The offer stands, if you need help later on just let me know.

[2k05gt]

I removed the Cams the other day and wow what a difference in the drivability of the car, it's much smoother and the Gas milage went way up (4mpg) and I the car is sooooo much quiter, the exhaust is not as harsh, I can actually drive through my neighborhood at 5am and not wake up babies.

I am not sure what direction I want to go with the car so plans are on hold.

[MarcSpaz]

Wow, really? That was such a mild cam too. I didn't think it would be that much of a diff.