would like advise on cams & heads

[garbledwords]

My goal is to have a legitimate 12 second car with street tires. This is my daily driver and I don't want to hurt my low speed / RPM performance. For the April NVMC drag day I was doing consistent 13.3s, so I would like to knock off 1/2 second and I figure that cams and heads will do it. (I'm just not all that interested in going the FI route.)

For my performance mods I have BMR strut brace, WMS 80mm CAI, Dyno Tune, Steeda Ultralight springs & Pro Action struts, UDPs, Eibach anti-sway bars, 4.10 gears, UDPs, BMR LCA, welded re-loc bracket, adj UCA, and adj panhard rod, long tube headers with catted H-pipe going to FRPP GTA mufflers.

I am thinking something along the lines of CompCams Stage 2 NSR (127200) or even the VSR (127300) cams along with the Livernois Stage 2 heads. Or another possibility is the FRPP High Lift Hot Rod cams (M-6550-3v) and their M-6049/50-463P heads. And I also notice other companies are getting into the mix such as BBR is also offering 3V cams and heads. A lot of choices, but I am not sure that the differences in them are really going to be noticeable for my setup. I am looking for that old style muscle car idle sound.

And part of this is what about the other components of my intake side. My CAI is 80mm (which is believe is the stock size) and WMS does offer a 95mm mass air meter which they recommend once I get to the cams and heads.

A question is should I also go with a larger throttle body such as the BBK 62mm twin or even a GT500 TB?

And I am still running the charge motion plates. I figured that Ford put them on for a reason and as I spend most of my time in the low speed / RPM range where they are supposed to be effective I have not felt the need to put in delete plates so far. But are they still useful once I get cams and heads?

With all of the above, I'm wondering if I am in the range a aftermarket intake manifold such as C&L or the new one from Ford Racing.

And after all that, it would seem that I need a torque converter. I don't really know much about them except for the basics. I guess one of my questions is what manufacture's are good. However, it would seem that I would want to have everything else put on and tuned up so that I can match the engines power curve to the correct torque convertor.

Looks like I have quite a shopping list here. While I don't want to over spend, I want to get good quality parts and get it all done at one time.

All comments, opinions, and advise is welcomed.

[MarcSpaz]

Okay, you did provide a lot of information about your goals and your current config. I started off in the "exact" same place as you 2.5 years ago. I did the job 3 times because I didn't get right advice the first time, or the second... LOL... I hope to spare you that trouble. Bottom line... get the check book ready, because you are going to need a lot of power and torque to get a vert to run solid 12's every time.


Your car with you in it and a 1/4 tank of gas weighs in at more than 3,900 lbs. You are going to need great tires and about 370 RWHP and 350 RWTQ at a bare minimum. That puts you at a disadvantage compared to a coupe that only needs to make about 315/320 RWHP/TQ, as you have to overcome an extra 350-400 lbs compared to a coupe. As you add weight and drop ET's, it takes an exponential amount more power. Keep that in mind while guys with Coupe GT's are giving you advice. Most of them overlook that aspect.

CAI:
To get to that power range, you are going to have to go back to the beginning. You will need a 95mm mass air intake from either C&L or JLT. Pretty much none of the others flow as well. It doesn't matter if you have an input of 95mm if it only flow 850 cfm, which WMS, Steeda, and other brand tend to. C&L and JLT have 95mm mass air intake systems that flow well over 1,000 cfm, which you will need.

TB and Intake Manifold:
Don't waste money on a throttle body or aftermarket intake manifold. Those kinds of mods are best suited for FI cars that are pushing some major boost. If you install either, best case you will see 5-7 HP. I have seen guys lose as much as 10 HP and 15 TQ. If you want to throw away $2,000, I'll give you my address and you can mail me a check. At least I might buy you a burger some day.

CMDP's:
Get rid of the Charge Motion Control Valves. That should have been the second mod after adding a CAI. Once you start modding the car, they actually start causing problems with air flow. You will have problems with the plates bending and not operating fast or consistent enough once you start moving more air through the motor. Once that stuff happens, you will start having problems with not having a stable AFR, with could cause damage to the motor.

Cams:
You will not run a consistent 12.xxx with NSR, Hot Rod, or other entry level cams. O coupe would, but not a vert. Too heavy. Since you want to know a 1/2 second off, I would strongly recommend the Comp Cams XFI Stage 3 SPR 127600 cams. This is the most aggressive street/strip over-the-counter cam money can buy. There are other good brands and cams out there, but the Comps are my recommendation.

Heads:
You need to have your heads P&P to support a cam aggressive enough to make the power you need. I would strongly recommend you speak to Chris and Torrey at Excessive Motorsport for help with this. They could recommend a brand of pre-fabbed heads. They may also have a shop that does custom machine work for them. Either way, they are the ones to talk to.

As far as performance goes, based on my cam recommendation, I would recommend an intake valve flow rate of 300 CFM and an exhaust valve flow rate of 215 CFM. I would recommend 1mm oversized stainless steel valves get properly installed. I would also recommend the Comp Cams 26125-24 Bee Hive springs. They are engineered to work with the cam I recommended. Steel retainers would be fine.

Exhaust:
What LT's do you have? I like American Racing the best, but Kooks and JBA both make a good exhaust. Replace the catted H-pipe with a cat-less X-pipe, but hold onto the catted H-pipe for emissions testing.
The mufflers are fine. The stockers flow so well that the aftermarket mufflers really just change the sound.

Gears:
4.10’s are the most I would do for a car you drive daily.

Trans:
I would get a PI or TCI torque converter rated at 3,500 RPM stall. You will have no problems on the street and it will let you stall the car up high enough to be really close to your power band when you leave the hole. Excessive may have a brand recommendation there too.

Tires:
Get yourself some good drag radials. MT’s and M&H are my preferred brands. You ate going to need some sticky tires to get the car down the track with all that power. I would say you need to stay with a 26” tire, maybe a 275 would be good width wise.


Once everything is said and done she’ll move down the 1/4 mile track at about 12.8-12.5 around 108-110 mph.

As far as driving goes, I put 20,000 mile on my car in one year with the same type of configuration as mentioned about. Drove it to work, movies, dinner with the wife, VA Beach, Rockingham NC, everywhere. Street friendly it is...

[2k05gt]

I would add that he want's to run 12's on street tires...

Second on the Removing the Control Plates, Ford Put them in there for Emissions at low RPM, thats all they do is tumble the air under low rpm driving.

If you like the WMS CAI setup, Look into modifiying it with a 04 Lighting MAF 90 mm (http://www.yatesperformance.com/en1200.html?___store=default)they are around 90 bucks
Or ask WMS if they would sell you the WMS High Velocity Intake, 95mm MAF (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wmsracing.com/wmsweb/media/wmsgifs/wms-hvi05mv6.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wmsracing.com/wmsweb/wms_high_velocity_intakes.html&usg=__ks7eDI-v7uBRN-DeIpyY8yHHyQU=&h=315&w=400&sz=96&hl=en&start=15&sig2=1rErGVIan_2b2HkcA5-bOw&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=VWUtVQEoyA-wFM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3DWMS%2BMAF%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26tbs%3D isch:1&ei=W2kRTNjGH4uZ_QaepqH_Aw) to upgrade yours.

If you go with an agressive setup (Head Cam Combo) you will need sticky tires, I wonder if you should look into Weight reduction? aluminum Drive Shaft, K Member, Radiator support. remove some heavy iron.

[boss281]

More power, less weight, and sticky street tires. 'Nuff said...

[stkjock]

I know you said no FI, but much cheaper and more assured to reach your goal with a blower.

my .02

[garbledwords]

First I would like to thank everyone for providing their comments and advice. It is all good stuff to think about.

I don't really want to go overboard with all this. And what I am hearing from youall who know more about this than I do is that I should not be counting on consistent 12s. :(

It would be a difficult decision for me to change from the WMS to a more "traditional" styled CAI. I really like to way it looks and I am planning on getting Cervini's Concept Hood which I have heard fits very nicely with the WMS (and yes, I know that they also make a "ram air" kit for that hood for use with a normal CAI). One of my goals is to have that little bit difference for my Stang (which the WMS CAI offers) and quite frankly, I am willing to have that at the expense of some performance.

It would seem that getting a VSR set of cams would make sense since I am planning on new heads. I understand that it is a real pain to replace valve springs while the heads are on the engine, but if the heads are off, it wouldn't be a problem. But I don't really want to get into the phase limiter thing with the cams, so that would eliminate any of the truly high performance cams.

Like I said, I wasn't sure if a larger TB and intake would be of any use. I didn't really think so but just wanted to confirm that.

Getting rid of the Charge Motion plates isn't a big thing. I wouldn't do it for my daily driving style with a stock engine, but with the cams and heads, they may not be helping.

I wasn't really precluding the purchase of an upgraded torque convertor, just that I want to get the engine done and it dyno'ed so I would have the data to make sure I get a TC that matches up. And of course, with a TC that would get the power to the tires, the tires are limiting factor.

It is in my roadmap to get a better set of street tires, but not for a while. But if I really want to see some good track time, then I can understand where DRs are the way to go.

Super chargers are definitely be an easy way to get some extra power. And if I were to go that direction, it would be a small one. My goal is to have around 350 or so rwhp. I already have more power that what I can use on the street, so the extra is really only good for the track. And the more you have, the more it costs and after a point, it costs more as you beef up the rest of the drive train to handle it. And quite frankly, having more hp is just having a number. Its nice, but it doesn't really turn me on as I wouldn't have much use for it. I would be wasting it. However, even with a super charger, I would still want the cams to get that old muscle idle to the engine.

Removing weight such as aluminum Drive Shaft, Radiator support, etc. would be considered for some later time. This round of upgrades is for the engine.

Since I want cams regardless of natural or forced induction, and I would still need the DRs, TC, and CMDPs regardless, the tradeoff would be the S/C verses the heads, so I don't see where the S/C would come in cheaper. And of course, not all of this may happen depending on the total cost and how much money I feel comfortable in spending.

What I am thinking of doing is not locked in stone. I'm not planning of doing this until next spring so I have plenty of time to figure things out.

Any other thoughts are opinions? I would love to hear them. We all have different concepts of where we want to go with our Mustangs, and while I have my own likes and dislikes, that doesn't mean that yours are wrong, just different, and still good. And that is one of the things that I love about Mustangs. With such a huge aftermarket, they can all be different.

[2k05gt]

First I would like to thank everyone for providing their comments and advice. It is all good stuff to think about.

I don't really want to go overboard with all this. And what I am hearing from youall who know more about this than I do is that I should not be counting on consistent 12s.
Not that hard, we all have made several adjustments to get into the 12’s just learn from our mistakes

It would be a difficult decision for me to change from the WMS to a more "traditional" styled CAI. I really like to way it looks and I am planning on getting Cervini's Concept Hood which I have heard fits very nicely with the WMS (and yes, I know that they also make a "ram air" kit for that hood for use with a normal CAI). One of my goals is to have that little bit difference for my Stang (which the WMS CAI offers) and quite frankly, I am willing to have that at the expense of some performance.

I would call WMS as see what it would cost to upgrade the MAF to their larger one, then you can keep the WMS and it will fit into your goals. Going from 80mm to 95mm you will notice a huge performance gain doing this.

It would seem that getting a VSR set of cams would make sense since I am planning on new heads. I understand that it is a real pain to replace valve springs while the heads are on the engine, but if the heads are off, it wouldn't be a problem. But I don't really want to get into the phase limiter thing with the cams, so that would eliminate any of the truly high performance cams.

You can do springs on the car, not that big of a deal, I am replacing my heads since I bent a valve due to a bad spring / keeper.

Like I said, I wasn't sure if a larger TB and intake would be of any use. I didn't really think so but just wanted to confirm that.

Getting rid of the Charge Motion plates isn't a big thing. I wouldn't do it for my daily driving style with a stock engine, but with the cams and heads, they may not be helping.

Not sure why you are concerned about the Delete plates vs Daily Driving? These things are a huge restriction and can cause engine damage.
I got my delete plates several years ago and do not notice them gone, infact I gained in drivability, 80,000 miles daily driver.

I wasn't really precluding the purchase of an upgraded torque convertor, just that I want to get the engine done and it dyno'ed so I would have the data to make sure I get a TC that matches up. And of course, with a TC that would get the power to the tires, the tires are limiting factor.
It is in my roadmap to get a better set of street tires, but not for a while. But if I really want to see some good track time, then I can understand where DRs are the way to go.

Unless you are into the Drag Racing the TC will not help you on the street goals, forget the TC for now.
Pick up a set of cheap wheels and slap some DR’s on them it makes the track days more fun and safe, plus your not burning up the rubber on your daily tires.

Superchargers are definitely be an easy way to get some extra power. And if I were to go that direction, it would be a small one. My goal is to have around 350 or so rwhp. I already have more power that what I can use on the street, so the extra is really only good for the track. And the more you have, the more it costs and after a point, it costs more as you beef up the rest of the drive train to handle it. And quite frankly, having more hp is just having a number. Its nice, but it doesn't really turn me on as I wouldn't have much use for it. I would be wasting it. However, even with a super charger, I would still want the cams to get that old muscle idle to the engine.

To get an Automatic to 350 RWHP will take a bit of modding, Marcspaz is right at 365 with his car. He has Stage III Livernoise heads and Comp 127600 Cams with Phaser Lockouts.
I am at 321 RWHP and 315 TQ (thats with a bad spring) I have stock Heads and NSR 127200 Cams, JLT II CAI and LT headers, Pulleys, CMDP.

Removing weight such as aluminum Drive Shaft, Radiator support, etc. would be considered for some later time. This round of upgrades is for the engine.

Since I want cams regardless of natural or forced induction, and I would still need the DRs, TC, and CMDPs regardless, the tradeoff would be the S/C verses the heads, so I don't see where the S/C would come in cheaper. And of course, not all of this may happen depending on the total cost and how much money I feel comfortable in spending.

What I am thinking of doing is not locked in stone. I'm not planning of doing this until next spring so I have plenty of time to figure things out.

The only supercharger that will work with your WMS is the Saleen, very efficient at low boost, to get 360 RWHP at only 4 psi

Any other thoughts are opinions? I would love to hear them. We all have different concepts of where we want to go with our Mustangs, and while I have my own likes and dislikes, that doesn't mean that yours are wrong, just different, and still good. And that is one of the things that I love about Mustangs. With such a huge aftermarket, they can all be different.

At our last event Todd (Rygen) and I were watching all the mustangs driving in and noticed how they all looked different, each had it's own style and flare, they are cool are they...
anyway that’s what were here for, to help each other out and have Fun and Don't fear the deletes, there your friend...

[rygen]

Good info in this thread. I wouldn't rule out DR's, they are great bang for the buck. I would cut to the chase and get a pair.

[JJ@WMS]

Our 06 Auto GT with a tune, stock airbox, alum driveshaft and 4:10 gears went 13.02 at full weight on the street tires.

Lose some weight, get a good tune tailored for your auto trans, put in some 4:10's and a set of longtubes and I think you would be 12.8's all day long. Auto's dont need DR's as much at your power level because they are pigs out of the hole but they dont waste time shifting so its a wash compared to a stick car.

JJ